So, I'm a Buddhist now.

[Emoore]

I'm unlocking the topic purely because Despanan asked me too, even though obviously I've been doing fuck-all in the way of moderating or even, you know, being here, in the last several months. I feel kind of weird about that. So Rip, Agent... I guess I.O.U one future disputed thread-unlocking*, redeemable whenever. It's only fair.

If this one gets re-locked, I'm not gonna fight the other mods on this. Which I guess would make Esuna the tiebreaker, if she's still active. Desp, I'll be honest. I dunno if locking was the right call or not, but I think Nick was right about this thread just being kind of an unpleasant, slow-motion trainwreck now. That is over 20 pages. If we had some sort of dumping ground or subforum for endless argument hell, I would say to move it there. But okay, I've done it now, so have at it, guys...

[Despanan]

Thanks E. I'm actually not interested in continuing to argue. I think everything that needs to be said has been said.

[Despanan]

"And an old priest said, "Speak to us of Religion."

And he said:

Have I spoken this day of aught else?
Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself;
This for my soul, and this other for my body?"

All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.

And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
The freest song comes not through bars and wires.

And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,
The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.

And take with you all men:
For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.

You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees."

-Kahlil Gibran, the Prophet

[Agent]

“A Swedish minister having assembled the chiefs of the Susquehanna Indians, made a sermon to them, acquainting them with the principal historical facts on which our religion is founded — such as the fall of our first parents by eating an apple, the coming of Christ to repair the mischief, his miracles and suffering, etc. When he had finished an Indian orator stood up to thank him.

‘What you have told us,’ says he, ‘is all very good. It is indeed bad to eat apples. It is better to make them all into cider. We are much obliged by your kindness in coming so far to tell us those things which you have heard from your mothers. In return, I will tell you some of those we have heard from ours.

‘In the beginning, our fathers had only the flesh of animals to subsist on, and if their hunting was unsuccessful they were starving. Two of our young hunters, having killed a deer, made a fire in the woods to boil some parts of it. When they were about to satisfy their hunger, they beheld a beautiful young woman descend from the clouds and seat herself on that hill which you see yonder among the Blue Mountains.

‘They said to each other, “It is a spirit that perhaps has smelt our broiling venison and wishes to eat of it; let us offer some to her.” They presented her with the tongue; she was pleased with the taste of it and said: “Your kindness shall be rewarded; come to this place after thirteen moons, and you will find something that will be of great benefit in nourishing you and your children to the latest generations.” They did so, and to their surprise found plants they had never seen before, but which from that ancient time have been constantly cultivated among us to our great advantage. Where her right hand had touched the ground they found maize; where her left had touched it they found kidney-beans; and where her backside had sat on it they found tobacco.’

The good missionary, disgusted with this idle tale, said: ‘What I delivered to you were sacred truths; but what you tell me is mere fable, fiction, and falsehood.’

The Indian, offended, replied: ‘My brother, it seems your friends have not done you justice in your education; they have not well instructed you in the rules of common civility. You saw that we, who understand and practise those rules, believed all your stories; why do you refuse to believe ours?’”

— Benjamin Franklin, “Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America,” 1784

[Despanan]

"...At that time the Buddha said to the multitude of great bodhisattvas: “Good men, now I will state this to you clearly. Suppose all these worlds, whether they received a particle of dust or not, are once more reduced to dust. Let one particle represent one kalpa. The time that has passed since I attained buddhahood surpasses this by a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya kalpas.

Ever since then I have been constantly in this saha world, preaching the Law, teaching, and converting. And elsewhere I have led and benefited living beings in hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas and asamkhyas of lands. If there are living beings who come to me, I employ my buddha eye to observe whether their faith and other faculties are keen or dull, and then depending upon how receptive they are to salvation, I appear in different places and preach to them under different names, and describe my life span as long or short. Sometimes when I make my appearance I say that I am about to enter nirvana, and also employ different expedient means to preach the subtle and wonderful Law, thus causing living beings to awaken joyful minds.

Good men, the thus come one observes how among living beings there are those who delight in lesser teachings, meager in virtue and heavy with defilement. For such persons I describe how in my youth I left my household and attained supreme perfect enlightenment. But in truth the time since I attained buddhahood is extremely long, as I have told you. It is simply that I use this expedient means to teach and convert living beings and cause them to enter the buddha way. That is why I speak in this manner.

Good men, the scriptures expounded by the thus come one are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others; sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.

Why do I do this? The thus come one perceives the true aspect of the threefold world exactly as it is. There is no ebb or flow of birth and death, and there is no existing in this world and later entering extinction. It is neither substantial nor empty, neither consistent nor diverse. Nor is it what those who dwell in the threefold world perceive it to be. All such things the thus come one sees clearly and without error.

Because living beings have different natures, different desires, different actions, and different ways of thinking and
making distinctions, and because I want to enable them to put down good roots, I employ a variety of causes and conditions, similes, parables, and phrases and preach different doctrines. This, a buddha’s work, I have never for a moment neglected..."

The Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, pp. 266 & 267

[Agent]

“On the other hand, 'shirkers and idlers' who fail to speak out when they should and who are unable to repudiate evil are, in the final analysis, slandering the Law themselves… no matter how much daimoku lazy people chant, they will not receive true benefit or develop a diamondlike state of being. They will not attain Buddhahood. … Buddhism is very strict. No matter what excuses people make or what leadership position they hold, if they do not fight against evil, they will fall into hell.”

— Daisaku Ikeda, January 11, 1997

“On the other hand, it is the members of the priesthood today that have become "devils" and "those in league with devils" who seek to halt the flow of kosen-rufu and who are destroying Buddhism. They are enemies of kosen-rufu and enemies of Buddhism who seek to render the Buddha's words meaningless. For this reason, we must resolutely crush them. Between the Buddha and devilish functions, there is no middle ground. If we fail to fight, or if our efforts are only half-hearted, then we will become allies of these devilish functions.”

— Daisaku Ikeda, May 23, 1993

“All the Nembutsu and Zen temples, such as Kenchō-ji, Jufuku-ji, Gokuraku-ji, Daibutsu-den, and Chōraku-ji, should be burned to the ground, and their priests taken to Yui Beach to have their heads cut off. If this is not done, then Japan is certain to be destroyed!”

— Nichiren Daishonin, The Selection of the Time

[dexeron]

"Nasreddin was walking in the bazaar with a large group of followers. Whatever Nasreddin did, his followers immediately copied. Every few steps Nasreddin would stop and shake his hands in the air, touch his feet and jump up yelling 'Hu Hu Hu!' So his followers would also stop and do exactly the same thing.

One of the merchants, who knew Nasreddin, quietly asked him:

'What are you doing my old friend? Why are these people imitating you?'

'I have become a Sufi Sheikh,' replied Nasreddin. 'These are my Murids; I am helping them reach enlightenment!'

'How do you know when they reach enlightenment?'

'That’s the easy part! Every morning I count them. The ones who have left – have reached enlightenment!'"

[Rip]

"Religion is the most important thing in a person’s life. If electric trains are the most pervasive thing in one’s life, that is his religion. Anything can be a religion if it means a lot. If your present religion isn’t the most important thing in your life, then skip it. Find whatever impels you most and make that your religion.

Religions are easy to invent. Most traditional religions have little or nothing to do with reality, are dependent on obfuscation, interpretation, guilt, and unreasoning faith—some more than others. Since Satanism is essentially a religion of the self, it holds that the individual and his personal needs comes first. If that means playing with trains or spike-heeled shoes or singing in the bathtub, those are its sacraments and devotions. Taking inventory of old comic books is counting beads on a rosary, each book being a station of the cross.

Before I codified Satanism, thus enabling me to integrate everything of a personal meaning into a suitable forum, I first considered the religion of Dogism. The belief system made sense, but was too limiting. Dogism holds that if you can’t eat it, and you can’t fuck it; piss on it. Much as I respect dogs and their gods, I could relate more to Catism, the principle religion of cats. The Five Commandments of Catism are:

DON’T RUN, IF YOU CAN WALK.
DON’T WALK, IF YOU CAN STAND.
DON’T STAND, IF YOU CAN SIT.
DON’T SIT, IF YOU CAN LIE DOWN, AND
DON’T STAY AWAKE, IF YOU CAN TAKE A NAP.
Catism counsels: “He who sleeps the day away / lives to sleep another day,” or, “Respect the friend who brings your food, for he has been your choice / Or go and catch it for yourself, and have a louder voice,” and other such homilies.

Freud’s “pleasure principle” should be known to be the highest motivator for any religion. The significance of any fetish is a yardstick for its priority. When a fetish transcends all else, including survival needs, religious fanaticism is the result. When the audio equipment takes priority over the music, the way the music sounds is more important than the sound of the music. The act of falling in love can be more important than one’s choice of a mate. If the size of a screen is more important than what’s on it and the latest hardware and software eclipses the quality of the product entered—fetishism is the result.

All activity that consumes, therefore, should be recognized as being both religious and fetishistic. A Satanist whose hobby or fetish is Satanism per se, is no more of a Satanist than one who, realizing the indulgence advocated by Satanism, accepts the Name. The difference between the man or woman who’s a practicing Satanist, from an identity Satanist is that the practicing Satanist looks at the picture, while the identity Satanist studies the frame.

All activity that consumes, therefore, should be recognized as being both religious and fetishistic.”
Those who disparage and belittle the Church of Satan to an obsessive degree reveal their fetish. In reality and practice, by their consuming interest, they reveal their true religion to be—the Church of Satan. Otherwise, they would turn on their heel, walk away, and refuse to subject themselves to that which they need not. Clearly, they need us. We don’t need them.

Never underestimate the sexual corollaries to fetishism/religion. It’s too easy (and convenient) to dismiss covert arousal. Just as there have been foot fetishists who work in shoe stores, there are masturbationist writers and artists who have nothing to say and write nothing worth reading. Their output amounts to one stroke or rub per line of type, using their typewriters or computers as sex toys. This can lead to sexual dependency upon the computer. Far-fetched? Things have changed since monks illuminated manuscripts and suffered ecstasies.

Varieties of religious experience can be as interesting as varieties of fetishism. Though there may be many kinds, overall, each disciple has his or her rigid set of preferred and obligatory devotions. Each has personal words of power as a result of distillation. All roads lead to Rome for the serious practitioner. It is Spare’s principle of reduction, Pavlov’s bell. The devout Catholic crosses himself and murmurs “Saints preserve us.” The Pentecostal shouts “Hallelujah!” The Jew says “Mazeltov.” A more potent manifestation is possible, when one considers the true nature of religion. They might instead say: “I need a drink,” “My niece with the fine ass...,” “Is she a disciplinarian?” Every fetishist/religionist has sacred buzzwords: “tickle,” “Cherry ’65 Mustang,” “stinky socks,” and millions more. Sexual fetishes are probably the most epicurean preference of the human animal. The smallest detail is of great significance and there is little margin for error. In fact, there is less room for deviance in deviance, than in any other human endeavor.

If certain words and phrases keep reappearing, it’s because they're never tiresome, always fresh. Uncle Louies favorite musical composition may be the same old tune to others, but to Uncle Louie, it improves with age - which is more than can be said for Uncle Louie. It is his Ave Maria.

Satanism is the only religion which serves to encourage and enhance one’s individual preferences, so long as there is admission of those needs. Thus, one’s personal and indelible religion (the picture) is integrated into a perfect frame. It’s a celebration of individuality without hypocrisy, of solidarity without mindlessness, of objective subjectivity. There need be no deviation from these principles. They should summarily negate internecine strife and bickering. Any attempts at Satanic “reformation” should be seen for what they are: creating problems where none exist. There should be no place in any religion for reformers whose very religion is the fetish of reformation. There is even a place and title for compulsive dissidents, and if they can wear the mantle, they are welcome. They would delude themselves to be revolutionaries. In our camp, they are called 'House Masochists.'"

-Anton Szandor LaVey, originally appeared in The Cloven Hoof, Issue #127, Year XXXI A.S.




Also holy shit, Agent. At least MY horrific cult leader isn't advocating any beheadings :/

[Despanan]

[Despanan]

But to get us back on topic:

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself."

-Karl Marx