Edward Snowden was a BOB

[Despanan]

Revolutions aren't done to persuade people - by the time a revolution happens a sufficient number of people have already been persuaded.

and as I've said before, arguments on the internet don't exist in a vacuum and it's false to assume that people can't be persuaded. I used to be a conservative LOLbertarian who supported Bush and the War in Iraq. I used to watch the Oreilly factor. Then I argued on the internet and did some living in the real world and realized I was wrong. Dex also used to be a LOLbertarian - he also changed his mind.

People aren't fixed Phant. We grow and change. It doesn't happen immediately or as the result of one conversation, but it does happen. The political landscape in America has changed so much since 2011 that it's almost unrecognizable, just two years later.

I think the Internet has alot to do with that actually.

[Rip]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/opinion/h ... topstories

so, on the one hand, yay transparency. on the other hand, boo crippling our intelligence programs internationally. seems about even to me, really.

What Would Captain America Do?

[Phantomgrift]

Punch Snowden in the jaw and drop him off to Nick Fury?

[Despanan]

According to Civil War - he'd lead an uprising against the US government - then later surrender to Tony Stark and the new police state because ordinary people (no doubt effected by the propaganda & post 9-11 paranoia) are scared of him.

Then someone will shoot him in the head and he'll die.

Oddly apt, in hindsight.

[Despanan]

Okay, I read the article in full.

My response:

1) I'm not shedding any tears for the intelligence communities jobs becoming harder as a result of Snowden. They had a priviledge and they abused it. Clearly they cannot be trusted to use these privileges judiciously and therefore they should not have them.

2) I'm also not shedding any tears for Verizon, apple, google or any other company that cooperated with this program. They should lose money, buisiness and prestige over this: They deserve to. If European companies do the same thing - those European companies should ALSO lose money. Their bad behavior does not excuse our bad behavior.

3) When it comes to Obama and Bush - they aren't very different when it comes to foreign policy & domestic spying. The fact that both of them believe in the security state and Snowden does not is a point for Snowden, not a point for them.

[Phantomgrift]

Intelligence jobs are getting harder because leaks set out by people like Snowden, (despite your personal opinions), directly threaten the safety of the U.S. I've stated it before, and I'll do so again. Despite the desire some people have, the world is not full of kittens, gumdrops and people waiting to drink a coke and sing. There are evil men in the world who want to do evil things.

By leaking the shit they do, guys like Snowden directly make this harder by giving enemies of the U.S. better capability to defeat our safeguards.

The Companies? Meh, again, it amuses me how guys like you get all grumpy over stuff like the NSA working with electronic companies, but don't seem to have to much issue with the companies themselves routinely collecting data on everyone that uses their product.

Your first comment also doesn't make sense.
Who had a privilege and abused it? Snowden? The Intel Community?
The more it's looked into and the more that is revealed, a stronger case is built that indicates Snowden set out to pull this stunt years ago. It was not some bleeding-heart, change-of-emotion, spur-of-the-moment thing.

There is a fine balance you seem to miss sometimes Desp.
Security is needed within any community. To much is problematic, but to little is also problematic and neither one benefits the community in the long run.

Or would you say that socio-economic silliness defeated the Nazis and military tactics, intel and procedure had nothing to do with ensuring we dont speak German? That all of that was just testosterone-driven political dick-swinging on the part of all parties involved?

[dexeron]

[Phantomgrift]

Are you a threat? Do you hang out on terrorists websites or spend lengthy chat conversations with known AQ sympathizers?

And even if you do, they have to build up a case against you.
This is not the German STASI, officials cannot sweep in and carry you away in the dead of night based on whim and say-so.
You have to have set an established precedence for actively desiring to commit harm against your country and her people. Like I said, we do have rules and regulations we hold to, even if pricks like Snowden seem to think otherwise.

[Despanan]

[Phantomgrift]

On that front, I could just as easily say that the Russian Winter played a significantly bigger role in defeating the Nazis on the Eastern Front.

Germany didn't "go insane".
They weren't in abject poverty either. Following World War I, however, they were hurting. Economically, socially. That's what made Hitler such a critical factor. He gave them something to believe in, he made them feel like their downbeat nation could be lifted from the mud, dusted off and made to do great things again. He worked this angle for years before slowly and insidiously feeding in his particular brand of genocidal madness.

Wait, you get after me for comparing nonsense?
Security has nothing to do with prison population. The only reason our prison population is so large, is simply because we don't execute near as many people as we used to. And those are mightily poor comparisons. National Security has nothing to do with socioeconomic factors or psychological that will lend itself towards crime and the criminal mindset. You're trying to hold State microcosms up against a National level macrocosm and the variable differences between those do not lend themselves to equal comparison.

On that level, however, this is when you could take a gander at someplace more "obsessed" with security and study the rise and spread of CCTV and the monitoring of the population of the United Kingdom. That is a society obsessed with security combined with a people who view personal security in a different light than the United States because of their cultural differences over the growth of each nation.

Granted, if the past is any indicator, this is most likely falling on deaf ears, because you simply don't like it when people do not accept your world-view willy-nilly. Shoot, even your cohorts on gothic.net have taken to giving you some rather harsh feedback.