Edward Snowden was a BOB

[Despanan]

I'll agree that they're separate issues - I brought it up to illustrate that the State does not have to be a mustache twirling villian to abuse it's power. By virtue of giving the state this power we garuntee it's abuse. That's my point.

You cannot trust the NSA to use this power judiciously is the point of my post.

[dexeron]

Nod, I actually agree. Just nit-picking, and at the end of the day, what we tolerate in one sphere no doubt has influence on what those in other spheres feel entitled to get away with.

[Phantomgrift]

Dex, can you or Desp ever try to make a point without resorting to dismissive insults geared towards painting a certain connotation onto someone's post?

"Pollyanna"... Really?
Out of my entire post, and that's what you boiled it down to?
I get the feeling this is why logical debate is a lost cause online. At this point, there is nothing I could say in any way shape or form that would have you agree with my viewpoint if it wavered as so much of an iota from your own viewpoint.

I even tried to look at this from the objective viewpoint of someone who works within the government.
Which is apparently enough to ward off you and Desp because all government is somehow intrinsically evil in your eyes. Of course, tying that in with Desp's thought process leads one to ask... If not the current government, what?

A community enclave as he dreams about? And how long before that goes south?
Desp actually likes to postulate on his ideal society a great deal, but he never really addresses how to deal with trouble-makers or those who would still refuse to follow the existing rulebase, no matter what dictated it. Are we all going to magically change our thought process, come aboard the global vision and hold hands while singing "I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing"?

That's either a sci-fi vision of a pipe-dream or a totalitarian future.

[Phantomgrift]

Also, Desp, to further address your post now that I’ve a bit of a break:

You give off the indicator that all this information gathering is only for an end goal of “nefarious purposes” designed to “erode democracy and oppress innocents”. However, per diatribes of yours in the past, you are already of the firm belief that democracy is a dying and corrupted system that needs to be done away with entirely, and oppression of innocents is carried out on a nigh-daily basis. So this is either already happening, or you’ve got to retract your earlier statements and speak as though this is the new threat, and democracy isn’t as bad as you previously lead us to believe?

And congrats, the FBI showed up at his door. Are you familiar with the term and/or practice of “SWATTING”? Wherein Anonymous or similar groups like to phone in tips about a potential hostage situation to set a fully-armed SWAT team upon a targeted house or dwelling for no viable reason other than harassment? See, that has about as much to do with my post as your example did with mine.

If your buddy was a potential suspect in protests where something untowards or legally questionable took place, than yes, I can expect the FBI to show up. That’s rather interestingly enough, their job. Nothing in what you describes goes outside or beyond the scope of what they are paid to do. Your personal experience with what would appear to be overzealous police force? That’s different. That is outside the scope of what a member of law enforcement is paid to do. Granted, by your own mockery against me in the past, your single personal example is not empirical evidence of society as a whole, and therefore doesn’t count in the grand scheme of things.

I know you don’t give a “crap” as you so like to point out. I reference the basic ideology behind the “Monkeysphere”. In your mind, because certain situations don’t happen to you personally, or to anything within the scope of your interests, you dismiss it with a basic handwave in that it doesn’t apply to you. You’re right, you are more likely to get into an accident in your own home. However, at the same time, some of the plots thwarted were attacks that if carried out, would have resulted in a death toll to rival that of the WTC attacks. Do you still not give a crap? Is a plot to destroy an airport via explosives and a major gas main something that is outside your scope of caring simply because it’s a hypothetical? What if it had been a plot enacted against a target in New York? Your stage building perhaps? Little closer to home? Nah, still doesn’t matter because it’s a what-if and a maybe. …. Which is, incidentally enough, a lot of what you postulate in your continued opinion that society is doomed and can only be changed if we enact upon the ideology that you have deemed necessary.

I can state that Intelligence agencies exist for a reason. History has proven over and over again as to why they are not “wrong”, nor do they need to stop. Actions carried out in the name of intelligence can indeed be dangerous. But actions carried out in the name of anything can be dangerous. That’s why it remains critical that oversight is maintained and standards are set by solid men who hold to those truths. Therein is the greatest difficulty of human nature of our day and age. Determining where that fine line is and who can step so far without crossing a barrier… or even where that barrier is to begin with.

Dex, all I can ask you is to contrast the differences I pointed out and hit upon in my original post.
Why is it so hang-fire brimstone and damnation when you or others of your mindset learn that the government is data-mining… But when private companies and corporations do it, it barely registers a flicker of “meh” on your moral compass?

As far back as a NOVA special on PBS I was watching in the early nineties was information pointed out about how much data a company could track on you simply by credit card.

Again, why the cherry-picking?
What determines which one is good and which one is okay?
Contrary to your attempts to paint me as some starry-eyed schoolgirl, I’m deftly aware of what the government engages in.
As a matter of fact, thanks to that unique perspective of working within the governmental structure, I think I’m more than aware of all that encompasses this job. Not just what I choose to see through rose-colored, Hoover-tinted lenses.

Desp is convinced that capitalism is wrong and must be replaced. He tries to cite autonomous conclaves of a sorts, but mistakenly drives this with a base notion that everyone will fall into this mindset with ease, once they simply see how well it works. He doesn’t consider, or at least I’ve never seen him consider, what would be done with those who do not wish this same viewpoint.

And you? You’re apparently convinced the government in inherently evil and non-trustworthy, but you offer little to no suggestion on what replaces it, nor do you bother to address what happens when companies and private organizations carry out similar methods.

This is why I believe both of you drag down whatever good ideas you may have, by seemingly ignoring any issues with your viewpoints, be it willfully or naively ignorant bliss. When I address middle of the road aspects, apparently in your eyes that makes me misguided, blind or cynical.

You two will never cease to amuse me.

[dexeron]

[Phantomgrift]

Then we're both misreading each other.
My post was meant less as a "nothing to see here, move along" and more of a "When this stuff has been enacted for centuries, much at the hands of the fickle voting public, and practiced extensively by private companies... Why the hell act like this is some out of left-field completely shocking shit?"

And your right, advertising firms and corporations don't have the type of enforcement that government has, but it sure as hell doesn't keep some of them from trying.

My end aspect is not "nothing to see here" but more of a "There is evil in the world... Evil that does not fight fair, and certain steps of a shadowy nature must be taken to prevent that evil from harming others."

The watchdog protocols we follow? They are in place to ensure that we don't become an altogether new breed of evil in and of ourselves.
And you're right, I don't work at NSA... But I know plenty of people that do. Despite what it may appear, the Intel community is very small in perspective to the rest of DOD jobs. But then again, I work in Intel, and ergo... You will never honestly know what I do or do not practice. Unlike Snowden, I tend to abide by the contracts I signed vowing to keep a lid on the stuff I'd seen.

I can definitely say that despite what Snowden or Manning cough up, there is a lot of oversight in the Intel community.
Shoot, we're not allowed to do a great chunk of our job without getting it "Omni-Domnied" by various regulations drawn up by degrees of acronym facilities.

[Despanan]

[Despanan]

[Phantomgrift]

I'm currently deployed again, and as such, cannot watch any video that runs through youtube. When I'm back in port, I tend to stay off the internet and spend time with my family.

Even now, I don't have much time for more than a quick blurb before I can set and answer some of these, but right off the bat, I'll will state that your reasoning for the attacks carried out against the U.S. highlight an incredibly poor or naive knowledge of Middle Eastern culture and Islamic methodology as far as why there extremists do some of the things they do.

And another quick note- For your ideal society: What happens when those rabble-rousers that you've left to sit off to their own devices use being told to sod off as a springboard of determination to build themselves up over the years before they can attempt to turn around and attack your new utopia?

[Despanan]